Offended by John Brandt Jrs. article, Business

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Boo-hoo! Some fast food businesses have had to close their lobbies because they don't have enough employees, and other service businesses have had problems hiring and retaining "entry-level" (that is, young) people as well. I for one am glad that these businesses are finding it hard to take advantage of a certain segment of society and pay them pitiful wages. Also, how many jobs get labeled "entry-level" when they really involve more responsibilities? If it's true, as Mr. Brandt says, that ". . . entry level employees are running most businesses!" shouldn't they be paid accordingly? I'm tired of these employers saying "it's not about wages" as Mr. Brandt tries to do in his article. It IS about wages! Mr. Brandt's offensive answer to not being able to hire "cheap" labor is to bring it from outside the U.S.. Yes, let's now take advantage of the immigrants from Chile and other places, since we can no longer take advantage of people here. Let's create a NEW wage slave market!
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tags: Bozemans, pitiful, wages + add tags
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posted on Tue, Jul 29, 2008 12:44 PM
last updated on Tue, Jul 29, 2008 12:59 PM
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...and what is a fair wage? byEd.5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
OK, Beagle, let's pay everyone 25% more; then raise the cost of the product 25%. Now we consumers are faced with the problem of having to somehow come up with the additional 25% to pay this evil businessman who has so "unfairly" raised his prices so that he can pay the additional wages. So, we somehow negotiate 25% higher wages at our jobs and our employers raise the cost of their products by 25% in order to pay us, and the entry level worker can't afford to buy anything with his raise...he's right back where he started. Either that, or we stop eating there, the employer closes his doors and everyone of those entry level employees is now unemployed, as well as the greedy employer who created the business that hired them. Now, you have to pay more taxes to take care of all of them. You call it "taking advantage" of them, but isn't it really giving them an opportunity at work, experience and income that they might not have gotten otherwise?
RE: ...and what is a fair wage? bydanie0065 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
....hence the reason why everything sold in the US is made in China.
RE: ...and what is a fair wage? byEd.5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Nothing made in China is sold in the US, unless someone in the US buys it. Why do they buy Chinese products instead of US products?
A fair wage is a living wage! byAlphaBeagle5 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Many in my family currently are or have been business owners, and I can tell you we always paid decent wages. I am currently in business myself, and because I can't afford to pay a decent wage to hire someone (which would be great) I don't hire anyone. I would rather pay a decent wage (above minimum wage) than see just how low I can pay someone while squeezing the maximum out of them. Yes, in my opinion,some business people ARE evil! I don't want to be one of them. I have met a few business people that I find appalling, like the guy in his $1,000 ski outfit sitting and laughing about how he came to Montana because he heard how low he could pay people out here. Disgusting. Pay people a humane, living wage, be a solo operator, or get out of business!
Million dollar profits...... byjohnbrownraider5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
not actually have read the article it is a little weird to comment. But a thought that I always entertained is that businesses should pay more and take a profit cut instead of raising prices....instead of profiting in the millions....how about in the slightly less...yet still millions....
Thin ice byEd.5 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Aren't we leaning slightly toward Communism when we start telling businesses what they are allowed to make? Where will you draw the line? And, what if one or two of those business are in your 401k, and they start regulating your retirement?
Line needs to be drawn somewhere byAlphaBeagle5 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
I would ask where we draw the line on insatiable greed! At one time, CEOs made about 15% above the average worker's salary. Today, they make 500% more, and since I last read that figure, it's probably even higher. Right or wrong, people start looking towards socialism, communism, whatever - to try to right the balance again. Businesses that take advantage of people, and particularly lately immigrants who are ignorant of their rights and so forth, can be just as crooked and oppressive as any government - communist or otherwise.
RE: Line needs to be drawn somewhere bymitchelmauschen5 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse)
In July 1989 I was in Germany visiting my grandparents (I'm an Army brat with dual citizenship) and I remember that my uncle was stationed in the Army in Germany, he happened to be up with his family visiting when he received word from his fellow soldiers to call into his office and receive an update, the update was regarding the status of East Germany and the USSR; we received word from my uncle that communism had fallen in East Germany and the borders were open...

We drove into East Germany that day (my grandparents house was/is about 30 minutes from the old East German border) and the destitution I saw was something I'll never forget...

So, if people really think Communism and Socialism will right a balance they're sadly, sadly mistaken.

While the article in question discussed different factors of why there are so many open jobs in Bozeman, I think the author was very one sided...blaming high school kids whose parents don't make them work because the parents themselves can afford to pay for their childrens expenses is only part of the equation. This area is an expensive place to live; people can only work so much to live and aren't willing to sacrifice any more of their time off to work yet another job. If high school kids aren't willing, or don't have the incentive to work and gain some experience then they're shooting themselves in the foot for when they are really ready to enter the workforce after high school or college.

It would be nice if there were more business owners out there like AlphaBeagle; but alas, there are not, people are more focused on what's going to get them ahead as opposed to putting some great business karma out there and taking a hit on profits a little more....
Who draws it? byEd.5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
The president? He changes every 4-8 years. The congress? Who would trust them? The judiciary? Not their job, nor their area of expertise.

How about the market place? If the CEO of a corporation is being paid $5m, or $50m, and he is not producing, he's gone. If his leadership gives stockholders a 20% return, maybe he's worth it. Force him to take a pay cut to $1m, maybe he quits and is replaced by me--I'd try anything for $1m--but I lose the stockholders 10%. Was the savings of $49m worth it? Suppose the growth of 20% created 2000 new jobs, probably at union wages, and the loss of 10% lead to the loss of 500 jobs, and a strike by that union (that's how it works, isn't it). Which was better for the economy? Was it worth $49m?

AND - Where do you draw it? Not at what salary, but on which companies. Beagle, you say you are in business yourself. Let's say you clear $200k each year. Is that too much? No? Suppose this year it's $800k; who tells you that's too much, and how much too much? You would have to hire some help, but you could afford to pay them a "humane living wage". Since you can make $200k by yourself w/o having to hire anyone, assuming you need 4 (3 more) to increase your income 4x, would you pay each of them $200k? Why not...it would only be fair? How much would you pay them? Who would determine it...you? Would it be better to hire 8 @ $50k, and keep another $200k for yourself? You've created 8 new, good paying jobs and doubled your income. How about 2 $50k jobs and 15 $20k entry level jobs. You've doubled your income and helped 17 families who might be stuck on the unemployment rolls. How many of them are going to begrudge you your $400k?

I'm certain my reasoning must be wrong here somewhere...show me how this is less desireable than socialism or communism.
No lines.....but there are other ways for the businesses that do to promote it. byjohnbrownraider5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
I think that there should not any restrictions, but it would be nice if local business owners would not be so greedy, however, I also think that it would be nice if the world was perfect....so I guess greedy businesses along with death and taxes are some of the things we are stuck with.

However, I think that placing a cap on certain things might be a good idea with these foreign kids, on how the companies treat them....

Example: Recently a group of them as they were leaving, didn't have their house cleaned at the appropriate time when the check time came....the place they were employed charge them excess of $150!!! I thought that someone should report them to the better business bureau. Especially since they deducted it from their checks with out their consent or knowledge...they had neither opportunity or time to dispute the outrageous charge. Simply because the company had to come pick up the key to the apartment a hour later....
RE: No lines.....but there are other ways for the businesses that do to promote it. byEd.5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
But, JB, aren't you saying then, that the house cleaners are not entitled to a "humane living wage"?

There does seem to be some questions, based on your account of the story, about the ethics of the situation. But, do we know how much cleaning was required, or what kind of and agreement was signed beforehand?

If it is as wrong as you say, it can still be disputed, but that would mean giving most of their money to some lawyer.
I Drew The Line bydanie0065 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Ed - my former employer did regulate my retirement when they stopped contributing to salaried pension plan and 401(k) during a period of RECORD profits for the company! The shareholders wanted more of the earnings, I guess.

I started an engineering company about 10 years ago. My first client was my former employer, a Fortune 500 company that you'd all recognize. I left them because I needed to spend more time at home with my young family instead of the 60 + hrs/week at the job. I figured I could make a go of it as a part time contractor because I was asked to do a bunch of side projects from other companies while I was working at my regular job. Anyway, when my former employer invited me back and offered to pay me 7x my old salary as a contractor (they told me what they'd pay me. Period), I was totally excited and confused at the same time. My overhead was just a computer, printer and liability insurance... a totally crazy fortunate situation.

A few years passed, my company grew and I had employees. The rate we charged didn't change in 5 years. The company's take and our salaries and profit sharing was unheard of for the type of work we did, but we were unique and filled a rare niche. One day we decided that we were overpaid, so we cut the rate by %60. We didn't boost out workload, or do anything to cover the "loss"; we still made plenty of money. A few years later I sold the company, kept 40%, and split the balance with my four employees. We all retired. The gist of this saga is that it is possible to make too much money to the point where a person becomes figuratively nauseated and dirty. We had the sense to regulate ourselves for no other reason than to settle our conscience. Personally, if more US companies did the same thing, I believe we'd be better off as a society.
Wow! byEd.5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Danie, that's great! No matter how many cars you own, you can only drive one at a time; no matter how many homes you own, you can only sleep in one bed at at time. You set your limits and you have your peace. Isn't capitalism and the free market great?

I don't know what I would do if my income suddenly increased 10x. I expect I'd find ways to spend a lot of it, but I'm certain I'd give a lot away, too. (It seems to me that's something of what you did.)

One point that doesn't seem to come into play in your situation is that yours is a privately owned company...you had no stockholders to whom you had to answer. Had you had some, you couldn't have done what you did. They have to make money too, and expect to continue to do so long after you sell and retire.

I guess that's the difference between working for the big corp and working for yourself. I prefer the latter.
RE: Wow! bydanie0065 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Very good point about private vs. public owned. Working for myself was really the best.

I'm not necessarily sure capitalism is so great all the time- many sacrifice so few can succeed and get/stay wealthy fueled by greed.

You make a great point about personal limitations. Personally, spending money on stuff not needed only feeds the monster, nothing is truly gained. I own a truck built in 1990... runs great and fends off the biggest hail storms doled out by nature! We live in a house that was below the average sale price of real estate in Gallatin Co. Nothing fancy, yet we have money in the bank earning interest that is primarily given away throughout the year. We're just trying to live as simply as possible.
RE: Wow! byEd.5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Danie: I'm not sure your statement ",,,many sacrifice so few can succeed and get/stay wealthy fueled by greed..." is accurate. You cast it in the framework of the feudal lords and their serfs. For many, work is a blessing not a sacrifice. Granted some would just as soon lie at home watching soaps and eating BonBons while those who "...sacrifice so few can succeed and get/stay wealthy fueled by greed..." and those who hire them pay their way through life, but that option was removed back in the '90's and has become the private domain of our countless "Trust Fund Babies". Some labor at jobs they dislike, but many work at positions they love and feel richly rewarded by the results of their efforts. Except for your exceptional situation, most would like to have a higher salary, but none would wish failure on the wealthy employer who provides them with their opportunity. In fact, they rejoice when the company bottom line, "...fueled by greed..." or whatever other kindling he has, results in the Christmas or end of the year bonus, or the raise that says "Well done."

Like you, and me, all have the option of self-employment where our own personal "greed" (need for subsistance) occasionally results in the success you and Beagle enjoyed. I'm not trying to be contentious here; I just have a problem with branding employers with the GREED label. Capitalism may have its faults, but there has yet to be discovered a superior alternative. Maybe the falacies of human nature are more egregiously exposed there, but they also help drive it to the benefit of all who participate.
what?? byjohnbrownraider5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
The excess price they were charged wasn't by the house cleaners. It was by the person in charge for checking to make sure the house was neat and in order. I think you miss understood the statement. They cleaned the house, the company checked it, much like a landlord checks out of a house you are renting before giving back your down payment.
RE: what?? byEd.5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Sorry, JB. I thought your statement "...didn't have their house cleaned at the appropriate time..." meant they left it dirty. You're saying they were charged $150.00 for someone to come look at it and make sure it was clean, and it was? If that's the case, and there wasn't some agreement to the contrary unknown to us, I'd like to know the name of the company so I can be certain I don't send them any business.
RE: what?? byjohnbrownraider5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
I don't know...there may have been something in the contract, but they seemed pretty shocked about how expensive it was, however they were leaving in 4 hours to go back so there wasn't a whole ton they could do...
"I, Me, Mine" bydanie0065 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Hey Ed. Again you bring up good points about the capitalistic model...and I absolutely benefited from the system.

I suppose my problem with the model is from personal experience. The majority of "successful" business owners/clients I've dealt with over the years are those Type A, "$1,000 ski suit wearers" who were more or less ruthless in their pursuit of the almighty dollar at the expense of their employees, paying them poorly,etc. I often was freaked out by employee treatment vs. expectation I witnessed while working on an in-house project.
You're right, Danie byEd.5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
It's called human nature, and many of them just don't remember how their parents raised them...then, again, many of them do and that may be the problem.

So, what can we do? Just our part. There will be a Judgement Day and we will all be called to account.
RE: You're right, Danie bydanie0065 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Again, I think the the pressure to succeed (read: own the big house, fancy cars, big bank account, etc.) has a tendency really screw with morality and sensibility.Even worse is that it tends to pressure the rest of our economic society to pursue those things even when society can't afford it.

I think we are just beginning to see the damage caused by trying to keep up with the Jones's.
dont kid yourself byBike Ryder5 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse)
quote: There will be a Judgement Day and we will all be called to account. quote:


Hate to say it but you are living in a dream world. lol
Don't kid yourself??? byEd.5 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse)
Not sure what your reference is here, Bike. Are you suggesting there will not be a Judgement Day? I hope not...that is an established fact, but if so, the discussion that will ensue is probably best suited for a separate thread. Why not start a new post?

If that is not your intent, to what are you referring?
Re "Greed" byAlphaBeagle5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
In my earlier post I said (paraphrasing myself) when the gap between the haves and have nots becomes too wide, people often try to find a solution such as socialism or communism to try to "right the balance". For those of you who think I'm promoting these systems, I'm not, because the basic problem of human greed exists in these failed systems as well. For those good employers Ed talked about who pay decent wages so it results in "Christmas" or and "end of the year bonus" or "raise" - well, I'm not talking about them. Obviously there are good employers out there - but too many bad ones exist right along with them, like the guy in the $1000 ski suit. Also, there is another point I'd like to bring up (aside from wages) about what has occurred in many businesses in this country, particularly big corporations like Wal Mart (not to pick on Wal Mart alone, by any means). The creativity allowed employees has been totally stripped from many workplaces. For example, my mother was admiring a shoe display a young woman was setting up in a store. "You're very creative" my mom said. "Oh," said the young woman,"I didn't make this up. They give us a chart to follow". A chart to follow! For displaying shoes! So it is with many businesses. The employee has been turned into a robot not allowed to inject even the smallest idea of their own. Most people have some creative spark in them that they are eager to use. Most young people I've met are bursting with ideas they'd like to at least present to their employer - but in many cases are quickly cut off with the words "corporate doesn't want things done that way". Now I understand that companies want to present a certain "brand" or image, and they want it presented consistently across the country in all of their stores. But when I worked for some of these companies (yes, I worked many entry-level and higher jobs), the only thing I learned was that I was a body and a brain to be "programmed" with the corporate mentality. Everybody do the Wal Mart cheer! Hurrah? The only thing I learned from these companies was how I couldn't wait to get away from them and try to get out of the bondage of working under such stifling conditions for low pay. Hence my efforts at starting my own business and certain vows I've taken - which is to pay decently and deliberately build in opportunities for employees to present and try their creative ideas. The only thing many of you employers are teaching young people through the way you have set up your workplaces is how much they are going to hate working. And maybe because you have not really valued them and their ideas, that is why paying them more doesn't work either.
Judgment Day? bydanie0065 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
What does Judgment Day have anything to do with icky business guys and low wages? Oh - I know! Almost every money grubbing business person I worked with was "born again" and believed it was God who was fueling his/her ruthless success (not an exaggeration). It made me gag every time I heard about how they were blessed, saved and born to lead...blah, blah. That's about the time I'd quickly turn to my computer and simulate fake typing in an attempt to make them go away.

I love it - greed fueled by bible magic. Sounds like a Deadly Sin to me. I hope those guys have their mystical force field up when Judgment Day strikes.
Whoa...Danie byEd.5 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Back the truck up. My only reference to Judgement Day was the fact that in the end, we all going to have to account for the way we conduct ourselves and the way we treat other people. If you've got an axe to grind with Christians, start another post. If you've got an axe to grind with God, take it up with Him. He will respond, but not on this forum.
Accounting? bydanie0065 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
If people of any religion didn't think they were better or more righteous than their fellow man, our society probably wouldn't be in the predicament that it's in.

I am reminded periodically when I listen to the radio why I feel this way, when Rush Limbaugh reminds me that he's on a mission from God. I think that says it all.

In the end, nothing happens, and, deep down, the ruthless business person knows it.
RE: Accounting? by