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Lower the drinking age...
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Are you out of your mind?
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Do you really care how dumb that idea is, or is this more of your flame baiting rap? Two high schoolers, THC and alcohol on board, driving in excess of 60 mph northbound on 19th. Ring any bells, Quasimodo? All of the credible research shows that shows that adolescents are huge risk takers and that they are impulsive to a ridiculous level. And you think that letting them legally alter their mentation is a good idea. You need to get your sorry ass into a volunteer EMS program. After you have responded to 2 or 10 impact, rollover/ejections we’ll see how hard you’re still espousing that plan. |
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RE: Are you out of your mind?
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Hey Bun Bun - Perhaps the legal driving age should be raised from 16 to 18 to align with your rationale of maturity/decision-making abilities of the age group? johnbrownraider makes a valid point with his post. |
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Of course you idiot!!!!
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Listen Bun Bun....of course young people are more prone to do rash things. Obviously, that was the dumbest statement ever written. Look at jails, how many criminals do their first crime in their early years vs. their later ones? But here is an idea, how about getting off the couch and raising your kid. If they are so stupid that they don't know the dangers of drinking and driving at the age of 18 then you have failed as a parent. So aren't parents the "anti drug" In every instance that a teen dies the parent probably could have avoided it. Why didn't the parents, the legal guardians find out where the kids were, and whether or not there was going to be alcohol at the party. I don't know, but maybe just maybe, the whole plan, of my mom calls Bobby's mom to find out if there is adult supervision before the sleep over....ummm there is a thought. But no, you expect to sit on the couch, not raise your kid...let them wonder the hell around doing what ever they feel like then get pissed because you as a parent never taught them whats smart and whats not. If you guys (parents) are the follow up of the greatest generation, then history will say that you guys are probably the shittiest one. No offense, I'm sure the one after you will be worse, but you expect the police and the government to raise your kids because you are too lazy to do it. I'm not stupid I have seen it. Come on, I have seen my friends parents sitting around drinking all day, and smoking driving home drunk from the bars then getting mad when their 16 year old kids get a DUI. BECAUSE THEY SAW THEIR PARENTS DOING IT. Here is another person to blame....how about stay around in your kids life? How many single mothers are there? A hell alot more this generation then last. But no, instead of raising your kid straight you simple pass laws not allowing it until you deem the piss and vinegar will have passed through your kid. Great parenting Bun Bun.... |
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Sincerely
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I don't know how old you are but you must be young and inexperienced because you don't seem to know the reality of drunkeness and how it ruins lives and costs society greatly. Welfare and foster care can show you. Treatment programs can show you. Criminal Courts can show you. By the way, breaking in to someone's home & going to court for it doesn't make you an adult! It makes you a criminal and a burden on good citizens. I still maintain that drunk drivers are one of Bozeman's biggest problems. We need more self-control and abstinance, not more bars and casinos. |
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Forget morailty
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Cwrite, actually I am young and probably inexperienced, but I maintain the fact. If a 18 year old broke into your house would you want them charged as a juvenile or adult? Think about it...an adult, adult crimes adult time, serve them adult drinks. secondly, the morality of drunkenness is NOT up for dispute. There are many things that I and probably others would consider immoral. Such as drunkenness, laziness, stupidity, I am anti abortion, yet I think people should have the choice. I rarely drink, I don't smoke, anything, or eat meat. However, whether I do it or not is a PERSONAL decision, should my personal decisions be forced onto others? No. Thats the difference |
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Darwin awards will be presented after the show.
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You have not responded to any of my points. You are either saying that you want to clean out the gene pool, or that personal responsability allows for you to die. Which is it? |
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RE: Darwin awards will be presented after the show.
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I'd go with personal responsibility allows for you to die. If you make good decisions, you'll do ok. If you make bad ones....well, you get the idea. It's all about freedom of choice. |
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What points??
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| What points? That young adults are more willing to take risks? Of course they are...how else do you explain young peoples enthusiasm for extreme sports, jumping off cliffs, or even joining the military...If one phrase could sum up a young persons mentality it would be bullet proof monk. Other than that what points are you making? I never said that the gene pool should be cleaned...I said that I thought that the generation after the greatest generation did a lack luster job at parenting....And for the second point that is so off the wall that it doesn't even deem a answer...don't come at me with your sob stories...rather how about true to life facts... | |
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Bun bun
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The story you mentioned was high schoolers. At the age of 18 usually they are at the tail end of high school if they haven't graduated yet. But you saying "All of the credible research shows that shows that adolescents are huge risk takers and that they are impulsive to a ridiculous level." States that at the age of 18 you would consider it ridiculous and impulsive for them to join the armed forces. Since many join straight out of HS. |
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RE: Bun bun
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| To quote chopsui: "States that at the age of 18 you would consider it ridiculous and impulsive for them to join the armed forces. Since many join straight out of HS." I totally agree with that statement based on first-hand experience as a Marine recruit. The blind faith in the Armed Services system, and lack of common sense and competency were obvious amongst my young colleagues. | ||
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Thank you Government for Saving us from ourselves
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Here's a thought--why doesn't the govt sit down and decide what is bad for us and then make it illegal? Wait, they are well on the way to that--they even protect us from our own private conversations by eaves dropping in on our phone calls at whim (see Patriot Act). Johnbrown--regardless of his lack of age (defined as wisdom apparently)--makes a very valid point. Seriously, think about it--we expect a young man at the age of 18 to be able to drive responsibly, marry responsibly, father responsible, and (the best of all) go to another country and shoot other people RESPONSIBLY! but we cannot expect that same young man to drink responsibly! Hypocritical?? YES!! Here's another thought--when does someone become a grown up? How do we come up with these arbitrary age limits? How many of you know a 45 year old who acts less responsible than your neighbor's 18 year old? Yes, I realize there has to be some standard but--as someone who was a mother, a home owner, and a business manager before I was allowed to legally drink (here's a little irony, I worked as a bartender from the ages of 19-21)--I always found the drinking age to be rather absurd. BTW, before I get cast as TOO young to have an opinion--I have been married for almost half my life (that is as close as I will get to disclosing my age:-) Maybe there should be some sort of "grown up test" for each step in our free lives. A driver's test, a graduation test, a mature enough to give our life to our government's latest cause test, a marriage test, a parent test..... Then we could truly say "Thank you US Govt for saving us from ourselves." |
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Bun bun you can't justify it...
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| If you think that the legal age of alcohol should be 21 so lets make it 21....across the board...then you would be agreeing with me...if you don't defend why not, why the laws should be off centered for some... | |
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It'll never happen again
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Law makers won't make easy access of alcohol to High School students, many are not able to make good judgement when sober, they are not going to add fuel to the fire. |
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Taboo Taboo
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| An important aspect of this argument is that when our lawmakers declare a substance illegal, they have created that always tempting "taboo" that has appealed to youth throughout the history of man. It is clear that the instances of alcohol abuse and addiction are much lower in most(not all) European countries where alcohol was freely accessable to even pre high school age youth. The spiritual side is that if you try to control peoples freedom of choice they will frequently rebel instinctively. So it makes clear sense to me that with the increasing level of governmental control there will be an increasing level of substance abuse and other social rebellion. I would think that you, Bun Bun, with your clear disgust at having to repeatedly respond to medical calls due to this rebellious mayhem, would be the first to advocate freedom of choice for the masses. At this late stage of the game, however, I'm sure there would be a significant spike in the mayhem as the aforementioned foolish were eliminating themselves. Maybe the fear of that "chaos before order" scenario is too fearsome for you to face! | |
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18 Year of Age
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I think that if our government says you are old enough to understand that you may loose your life, by joining our military, then by that way of thinking the same person is old enough to understand the consequences of drinking. Hhowever, is not my personal belief. I don't believe an 18 year old "kid" is old enough to understand the risks of joining the military, or drinking. Few are old enough to research candidates and issues to vote. Science has already proven that the human brain which is in charge of our actions, is not fully formed until the age of about 22 years. This is a good post. Thx JB |
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It should be lowered
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Johnbrownraider, you're right, it should be lowered. This issue is really all about discriminatory, selective ageism...as long as it's beneficial to the baby boomer generation and those older then it's perfectly fine to keep the status quo. They'll gladly accept an 18 year olds contribution to the social security coffers and then turn around and call them 'kids'...I'll reveal my age on here, at 31 I am still referred to as 'too young to have real experiences' and 'kid'...31!!!! For heaven's sake, I have 2 kids, worked since I was 15, put myself through college, own a home and yet I'm still not taken seriously! Lowering the drinking age might curb all the binge drinking that is quite prevalent amongst our under 21 citizens. And as far as the two young gentlemen who tragically made some poor choices and then went speeding at 60 MPH through a construction zone and lost their lives...if memory serves me correctly, I believe they were 16 so the argument regarding them doesn't really fit into this discussion. Personally, I do believe an 18 year old is old enough to understand the risks of joining the military, just as they are capable enough to understand the gravity of choosing an appropriate college or profession. |
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Teenagers are going to do stuff they're not supposed to regardless of how old they are. They have been for centuries and will continue to do so no matter how many restrictions we put on them, it's a part of growing up. It's like preventing a 6 year old from climbing on things because they'll get hurt. Let them get hurt. It's a lesson to be learned. As far as the drinking age goes... I don't want my state taxes raised to pay for interstate highway repair. Taxes are high enough as it is. Maybe, in response to kids drinking around here... has the idea to create something for under 21ers to do around here, like a concert venue, come up at all? Kids drink out of boredom... I did at least. Maybe... if they start putting up more vehicular homicide and car crash billboards that say "Booze... only took once." the binge drinking among teenagers will slow... Hmm.. Might have to lower the tobacco age too, seeing as how booze and smokes are quite the common combination. Wow... this could go on forever. Speaking of which, B-Side Players (if you haven't seen them... do yourself a favor) are playing a free (donations) show at Bogert Park on Thursday the 19th at 5:00. Maybe take your teenage kids that have nothing better to do now that school's over... positive impact parenting? Weird concept, I think it was popular in the 60's and 70's or something. How would I know though, I'm an 80's kid, and my parents let me fall off of stuff and get hurt. I didn't learn not to fall though, I just learned how to fall correctly to avoid getting hurt worse. |
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Once more
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People whose brains aren't fully developed don't understand the dangers and consequences of addiction or how hard it is to break. Why would we need a Halfway House on Church St if addiction wasn't such a difficult problem. Also, sober people of any age make better decisions/choices than "high" people of any age no matter their drink/drug of choice. By the way, self-control and abstinance doesn't only apply to morality. To drink one drink takes self-control. If you don't drink at all, you abstain. I suppose it's hard to imagine someone (except a recovering alcoholic) not drinking at all. Think about it. |
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Just a little tidbit ~
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When we drink, we get drunk. When we get drunk, we go to sleep. When we go to sleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we go to heaven. SO LET'S ALL GET DRUNK AND GO TO HEAVEN! Don't drink and drive. |
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ummmm........
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| It isn't about anything other than the fact is drinking is a right...the do-gooders-i-know-better-than-you however don't share the belief that we are granted basic rights... | |
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why the hostility??
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| johnbrownraider i agree with you that the drinking is a basic right that everyone is entitled to. however, i am wondering why the hostility towards the people who don't agree. obviously you are very passionate about this topic... why don't you do some research and write an educated letter to the state congress? i don't know that much about the law or the reason for 21 being the legal age, but i do know that the drinking age is not a federal law, its state by state. the only thing is that if the state lowers the drinking age, the federal govt has threatened to cut federal funding for roads and stuff like that. you should find out more. also im thinking you are underage...i don't know...but if you are, i think after you turn 21 you might look back and realize it wasnt really a big deal to wait the few years. | |
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Winnie....its tough love....ok not the love part....
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The part you must be referring to is the post about bun bun...the reason is that most people who disagree don't come ready to debate an issue. I try to pick topics that I can easy defend or I "know" I am in the right. The majority of the people who disagree with me come at me with all sorts of sob story this, or sob story that. Come with a honest debate, armed with facts, not just your political (either right or left) garbage. If you want to outlaw alcohol to some then outlaw it to all. They are legally adults. But no people come running around throwing stories about 16 year old kids...that never was the point. They are stupid and didn't research their facts. Sat down and wrote a emotionally charge piece of crap. Or the time the lady told me to do a ride along with the cops...Hey lady I did do a ride along, maybe its time for you to get your facts straight...If people want to debate they better come armed with facts, their emotional garbage doesn't work here. Finally, I am over the age of 21, not by much, but anyway, that answers that. In closing, why am I hostile to people who disagree with me? I am not, only the ones that refuse to look at basic facts, rights, or cling to their old ideals like a life raft in the middle of the ocean... |
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RE: Winnie....its tough love....ok not the love part....
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no actually, i wasn't referring to post about bun bun. i was making a general reference that i havent seen a single hard fact in this entire discussion...including on your part. yes i do agree with you that sob stories are not getting anybody anywhere. what i am saying is that if you feel so strongly about this, support your opinion with hard facts (i.e. statistics, results from studies....there are lots out there) instead of going on about how drinking is an adult responsibility like making the decision to join the military, or getting married or buying a house blah blah. mitchelmauschen made a good point about being 31 and accomplished and still not being taken seriously. whether we like it or not, society has specific ideas about does someone becomes a "grown up." nobody can change the minds of society or the govt without giving them an unarguable reason. so get the people "facts"....the real kind. |
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True....
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What kind of facts are you looking for....in some of the other posts I listed facts. However, how do you put facts up that support a destructive habit...the only ones are rights that we hold dear. I don't think there is a fact that shows lowering the drinking age is good...but the right to drink as an adult is defiantly a right... whether it is good for society or not...so I am a little confused about the "facts" you are looking for.. The reason I am hostile toward people, if I bring fore ward a argument about 18 year olds and you give me a story about 16 year olds, then that is garbage...I am going to tell it is.... Finally, I really love it how people dismiss my points by saying I am young, naive, and inexperienced. Well I guess that classifies them as old, senile, and bitter....I am speaking on rights granted to people the society has taken away.... |
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hope this helps...
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wow this is a tough one...your right that there will def not be as much info/stats showing good about lowering the drinking age. i bet there are alot of general type studies or surveys about something like.....of all the deaths caused by drunk driving in the past year or whatever "x%" were caused by.....and then states the age group (16-21, 22-27, 50-55 ect). i have never researched this, so i have no idea what a study like this would find. it would def take alot of digging to find positive stuff about lowering age. that was merely a suggestion. the thing is that you tend to hear alot more about deaths caused by younger age groups than older ones. its just that kind of mentality. and then there i go lumping 16-18 year olds into the same group. hmmmm..... as for your thing about people saying you are young etc...i think people assume this ( and iam just as guilty...apologies) because at least for me i didn't understand the root of your passion for this topic. i had the exact same mentality (for the lack of a better word) about lowering the drinking as you when i was underage. and then after my 21st bday, i was like whatever.... doesn't apply to me.... so, that said, i think when people read your post, they unfortunatly assume you are some underager complaining because you can't drink. now i understand your gripes! |
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That is mildly amusing....
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See I think that is a common misconception. When I first started writing I put on my profile (its not up anymore) that I was writing on discrepancies. Many don't, in fact most don't apply to me. People just assume that they do because I write on them. Lets see, in one article I defended a African American, then I wrote on pot, underage drinking, and jail. That is funny to me because I am not black, I don't smoke, and I am old enough to drink. However, because of the nature of the posts people assumed that I was black, a stoner, and a young kid. The point I guess is, a lot of the law/morality issues are really nothing more than a bunch of hog wash. People thinking that they know what is right, so they intend to push their views and take our rights away. |
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FACTS..........
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| That's a great suggestion about backing an argument with facts, but unfortunately the world has become a place of strong negativity rather than open-mindedness. A great case in point is I saw a post on illegal immigration on this site a little over a month ago, with a nicely laid out and meaningful set of facts attatched, and then saw reply after reply of people trying to discredit the facts, the source of the facts, the person that posted the facts, and anything else except to perhaps look at those facts and determine their impact on America. I never saw anyone claiming to have some researched facts of their own, or anything of the sort, just a bunch of slander and name calling. This post has a similar condition, even though the subject matter is very different. Johnbrownraider sees a fundamental flaw in our basic rights to freedom of choice, but when he tries to comment on that a wave of fearful and overdramatic response pushes back for some reason. Are some of us perhaps too afraid to face up to the costs of freedom, and would rather just give it all up in order to be coddled by our government. If you are one of those fearful people, you'd better take a good look at history, and what has happened to ALL civilizations that have forsaken individual responsibility and given their freedom away, or those who have never had it to begin with. Only a short time ago we escaped tyranny in Europe, and what was clear to all is that we needed freedom to choose and act for ourselves. Very quickly now that is | |