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Bozeman doing its fair share to BANKRUPT the U.S.
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I'll see your cut, and raise you one paste: From the Chronicle, July 4, 07
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The $10 million-plus project will be between Tracy and Black avenues on East Mendenhall Street and will contain 10,000 square feet of retail space and 337 parking lots, with room to add another 100 lots if need be. It also will serve as a hub for the Streamline bus system. Most of the money to pay for the garage comes from property taxes collected from downtown businesses, but $4 million will come from a budget earmark Rehberg inserted into a 2005 federal highway bill. Local officials welcomed the federal money, but for a brief time two years ago, its inclusion in the bill turned the garage into a national symbol of what critics said was Congress's inability to reign in "pork-barrel spending" - funding that is more about winning votes than promoting national interests. Rehberg said Tuesday that the money for the garage wasn't new money, but funds that were already coming to Montana through the highway bill. The state got about $2 billion through the legislation, he said. "That's one of those dastardly earmarks you hear about," he said, joking about the garage funding. "But it's an area that we made a determination that (the money) was important to the public within Gallatin County, within the city of Bozeman, and probably wouldn't happen unless we actually earmarked." Without the earmark, the decision of how to spend the $4 million would have been left to the Montana Highway Commission, which could have chosen to give it to another community, Rehberg said, adding it was only one of two earmarks in the entire $2 billion. So as I read it, 60-ish% from downtown, and 40-ish% Fed money that was channeled from funds already allotted to Montana for transportation projects. And it will be the hub for enhanced public transit, so we are killing two transportation birds with one stone, and using it for the benefit of the whole valley. Again, the TIF money mentioned is self-imposed by the building owners, over and above taxes paid in by all businesses. Hope that answers your question. |
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RE: I'll see your cut, and raise you one paste: From the Chronicle, July 4, 07
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I'll see your paste, and raise you 6 million. (good sense of humor you have!) Ok, so now that we are being civil...You are telling me that downtown businesses contribute 6 MILLION DOLLARS, not including the taxes which all businesses pay? |
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RE: I'll see your cut, and raise you one paste: From the Chronicle, July 4, 07
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I'm glad you caught the wink there. No reason to be uncivil. That's how I read it. As I understand the TIF it is an overlayed (is that a word) tax district the building owners agreed to in order to raise funds for such projects. There are other acronyms (DBA, BID) that represent the will and $ of the building and business owners in different ways. If you check out the link I posted in the other thread, they do a much better job of explaining each than I can. |
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RE: I'll see your cut, and raise you one paste: From the Chronicle, July 4, 07
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| "overlaid" < that was a Freudian slip, it should have been overlayed! | ||
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RE: I'll see your cut, and raise you one paste: From the Chronicle, July 4, 07
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2ndMonkey is holding "5" Aces LMAO |
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Toga Parties in TIF Districts.
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Some do not approve of this post. Appreciate the back and forth. I was most impressed with the lady I spoke with today. I tell yah, she should be a PR person for all people on death row. She's pretty good, and patient too. (wink wink) Alright, just tell your buddies downtown that it would be in their best interst to treat all people well. I have found that there are those who dress well, and are deeply in debt who can afford little. I have also found that many folks who are quite comfortable, work less to impress. Oh, the conversation...I brought up (oh I'm going to get blasted here! ahhh!) the MURAL on the wall of the EAGLES. I remember very well when this was painted. I asked what the plan was for this. The paint used was an oil based paint, which from what I understand has "etched" its way into the brick. Removal is literally impossible without destroying the brick. Removal of brick and refacing would cost a fortune. So, here is my suggestion. Could a photo be taken, or the original artist be contacted and asked to recreate this mural, on a much smaller scale? If so, the new "original" could be put in the museum (Gallatin County?) and then say signed and numbered copies be provided for sale. There are many people who love Gallatin Valley history (I am one), and I wonder if something like this combined with "buy a brick," could be used to fund restoration of the wall and maybe even architectural improvement. The park is done, and looks great. But, the "wall/mural" has had it's day. Sun, rain, wind, etc. have taken its toll. Just an idea. Imagine what fun it would be for the TIF to have it's TOGA Parties in Soroptomist Park! There might even be room for a hot tub! Who knows, it's all about connections you folks have... another "wink wink" |
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RE: I'll see your cut, and raise you one paste: From the Chronicle, July 4, 07
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| Thanks. Spell check doesn't like that either, but I'll go with it. | ||
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ANYONE KNOW??? I did check out the "link" No numbers, just "Mission Statements"
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Qestion: If the parking garage is going to cost 10 MILLION DOLLARS total, and 4 MILLION DOLLARS is coming from PORK, then where EXACTLY does the 6 MILLION DOLLAR difference come from? Question" How much total, have the downtown businesses contributed to the parking garage, and other renovations/updates downtown. I am looking for a number that DOES NOT INCLUDE the taxes all businesses pay. Thanks. Here's a cut/paste from the site: It IMPLIES that TIF (downtown businesses) are picking up most of the parking garage costs. So, that would mean more than 4 Million Dollars which the Federal Government is picking up/PORK. I have a feeling that there is something FISHY here! Anyone going to tell me that downtown businesses are paying over 4 Million Dollars for the garage? "Tax Increment Fund (TIF) MISSION STATEMENT: The downtown Bozeman Tax Increment Fund (TIF) will foster an economically thriving district that: 1) attracts investment; 2) stabilizes and strengthens the tax base; and 3) supports the vitality and diversity of the Gallatin Valley as its social and cultural center. The TIF was created to fund the implementation of the 1995 Downtown Bozeman Urban Renewal Plan. The TIF board is appointed by the Mayor with City Commission consent. The TIF is financed by the annual increase in the district’s tax base since 1995. As mandated by Montana Code, the TIF invests in infrastructure projects that add long-term value to the district. The TIF board recently provided matching funds for the landscaping of Soroptomist Park. TIF monies funded the historic street lamps, benches, trash receptacles, and bike racks along Main Street. The TIF is the major funding source for the Downtown Parking Garage, which began construction in August of 2007. The TIF also contributes funds to the Downtown Partnership for staffing and operating the Downtown Visitors Center." |
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RE: ANYONE KNOW??? I did check out the "link" No numbers, just "Mission Statements"
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Again, that's how I read it, but you're right that I am putting two and two together from the Chronicle article and the DBA website, which is a little conjecture on my part. I don't know the exact numbers. The link was meant to explain the TIF better than I can. I don't understand what part of that you take as fishy, though. What would be the benefit for them to misrepresent that info? You can call DBA (listed) as I did or find the contact info for the parking commission here: http://www.bozeman.net/commission/parking_commission.aspx and get the exact numbers. They also have regular meeting which should be open for you or I to attend if we have questions. |
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I read some of the Parking Meetings...
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I am going to call. Since the site says the TIF is picking up the majority of the parking garage, which would mean more than 4 million (Federal/oink oink) Just not sure how a bunch of cash strapped businesses, or so they say, can afford to toss out over 4 million dollars. Just like to see the proof. That means TIF, not county/state/city/regular taxes, but TIF. I think something here is a bit fishy... Also. The 1.3 million of Federal Tax Money spent on the STORY MANSION. I'd also like to know, just how much money the citizens of Bozeman have spent on this project. Is the "Story Mansion" really a City of Bozeman MONEY LAUNDERING Scheme??? |
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More info on TIF's in general
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So, I am learning some new things, too: The wiki on TIF's says the "Increment" part refers to the additional revenues available as improvements within the area raise property values and, by extension, property taxes. Part of that "extra" is then retained within the zone (as opposed to being distributed across the city) for improvements like parking garages. I think the same method is being applied to fund improvements in the "blight". The article weighs the pros and cons of the TIF concept: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_increment_financing I still can't say for sure if it is all separate from regular taxes, so I am eager to hear what you find out. I was wondering if you would weigh in on the Mansion $, too! Anyway, I'm not interested in being controversial or antagonistic. You posed some questions and I am answering with the background I have, plus a phone call and some quick googles. |
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I appreciate the assistance! What are your thoughts regarding my thoughts and "money laundering?"
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I will make some calls tomorrow. I'd like to know if the BID/TIF and others are creative ways of giving taxpayer money to downtown businesses which can then take credit... Now my radar is way up. Just want to know. The claim on the website is that they are paying the majority of the cost for the garage, again that means over 4 million dollars...HUH? Also, I reread the recent article regarding the "Story Mansion." I am now even more perplexed. The fellow (building inspector)with the petition, feels selling the mansion as a private residence is the best use. As far as "best use," really every proposal has seemed pretty reasonable. Where I am coming from is that Federal Tax Dollars/PORK were used to obtain/purchase this piece of property to begin with. So, the PORK received from our bankrupt government can be used, in a way that is no different than money laundering? Here is a quote from the Chronicle article to clarify Chase's petition. "Chase’s petition states, “We the undersigned and residents of the city of Bozeman, wish to have the City of Bozeman sell the Story Mansion and return the use of the Story Mansion to a single-family residence.” Chase said that if he’s not able to gather enough signatures, he might ask the City Commission to adopt the petition anyway, putting the issue on the ballot regardless. “It’s important to keep the issues before the people,” he said." |
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Taxes used for Pork
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I absolutely hate the way some of our tax dollars are being spent nationwide. It's the price we pay to live in a democracy, isn't it. |
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Taxes used for Pork
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You know, if a community needed a hospital or water system, and could not afford it then I would not have a problem. But PORK is simply abusing the taxpayers. I may be wrong, but the more one pays in federal taxes, I think the stronger they feel about these ridiculous projects. 4 million dollars to Bozeman, MT for a parking garage? WHATEVER! I am going to get to the bottom of this, and the TIF claim that they are picking up the majority of the cost. |
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"Whose fantasy was this?" Anyway, here's the 2nd story which must have been too long to make the post.
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(Yup, another "cut and paste") Bozeman Journal To Help Gulf Coast, Town Tries Returning Pork Barrel By TIMOTHY EGAN Published: September 29, 2005 BOZEMAN, Mont., Sept. 28 - Why not give back Bozeman's share of the federal money that some have derided as pork in the recently signed $286 billion transportation bill, and use it to help rebuild the ruins left by Hurricane Katrina? The money, by the standards of the $62 billion already appropriated for hurricane measures, is small change - $4 million for a parking garage. To some fellow Bozemanites, the proposal was a pipe dream. Nobody gives back money to the government. But there was life to the idea. About the same time, some people in Alaska suggested doing the same thing with their share of the transportation bill, particularly $223 million to build a bridge from the city of Ketchikan to an island with barely 50 people. They started a Web site, americagivesback.org; held rallies; and waved around a symbolic check for hurricane relief in place of "two bridges to nowhere," a reference to two bridges for which Alaska received about a half-billion dollars in the spending bill. The Heritage Foundation, which has long served as an intellectual font for influential Republicans, and its philosophical cousin, the libertarian magazine Reason Online, took up the same cry. In Washington, Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, said all $25 billion in special projects - called earmarks - from the transportation bill could be deferred. House Republicans and some Democrats, like Representative Nancy Pelosi of California, the minority leader, said a similar thing. The echo hit Representative Don Young, Republican of Alaska, chairman of the committee that guided the highway bill through Congress and a record amount of money to his state. "They can kiss my ear!" Mr. Young told a reporter from The Fairbanks Daily News-Miner, when asked about the proposal of returning federal money. "That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard," he added. Predictable as the go-round was in Washington, the thought of giving government money back has stirred civic souls in a place where the politics of federal budgeting rarely cause such a fuss. And it has taken some of the abstraction out of numbers that seldom prompt Monday night debates over lives versus parking lots. It has been the talk of Main Street in Bozeman, judging by conversations with merchants in this pleasant college town of 35,000. "I don't think you ever want to give back money once it's given to you by the federal government for infrastructure," said Bobbie Wells, a Bozeman resident who was out on her noon power walk. Tom Day, who runs a downtown smoke shop and newsstand, called the idea a worthy proposal, though he had little confidence that Bozeman could start something that would generate a wave of altruism all the way to Washington. "It's hard to imagine in this cynical political climate," Mr. Day said. "But still, as unlikely as it is, it has people talking. Do we really need a $4 million parking garage when all those people are suffering from the hurricane?" Ms. Velazquez said those were her very thoughts when she floated the idea. "I wouldn't say a parking garage wouldn't be nice," said Ms. Velazquez, who ran for Congress as a Democrat last year and lost to Representative Denny Rehberg by almost two to one. "It would be nice. But we're doing O.K. without it." She suggested that "every city in America look at what they can postpone or do without for now." The idea was that money in the transportation bill for things like a Packard museum in Warren, Ohio; a garage at a private university in Tennessee; and horse trails in High Knob, Va., among other things, could be better spent on people who had lost everything in what may be the nation's worst natural disaster. After Ms. Velazquez promoted the idea in The Chronicle and in a blog, the reaction was swift and large, and it surprised her. "People called me naïve and things like that, but you know what, nobody laughed at me," Ms. Velazquez said. "This is Montana. If I had come out with something contentious about snowmobiles or wolves, then I'd be facing some trouble. But a parking garage? No." On Monday, the City of Bozeman took up the proposal, and following the advice of City Manager Chris Kukulski, concluded that it would be impossible to give back federal money once it has been given away. After a lively debate, the City Commission voted unanimously to keep the $4 million. "We can't accept the check and then endorse it to the City of New Orleans for hurricane relief," Mr. Kukulski said in an interview. "It just can't be done." Ronald Utt, a research fellow at the Heritage Foundation who has been promoting the giveback idea all month, said that a narrow technical reading of federal law would make it hard to return money to the treasury for another purpose - but that it could be done. "If, when the $4 million check came to Bozeman and they tried to give it to New Orleans for hurricane relief, they would probably be arrested," Mr. Utt said. "Bozeman can't do this. But Congress can. This money came from a 1,200-page bill that nobody read. You can pull bits and pieces from it. You can unravel the formula." Mr. Kukulski said that Bozeman's conscience was clean because hurricane donations from its citizens had been ample and that the city had sent two of its firefighters to help with the relief effort. "I think most people appreciate the notion that we started something," he said. City leaders say they need the parking garage to attract a new performing arts center and for shoppers downtown. Parking at midday on Wednesday was a breeze, with two hours of free time allotted on and around Main Street." |
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Bozeman Downtown Partnership
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I contacted the Bozeman Downtown Partnership today. I spoke in length with a very nice lady named "Ella." These folks are sincerely generous with their time, and goals. Informative, and easy to talk to. Here's the deal as I understand it, regarding the TIF and BID. (Please, if I have made any mistakes, correct me. The intention here is to provide information. I think that's why we blog...no? ) The TIF began in 1995. In laymen's terms, this is how it works. If you own commercial property in the TIF area, you will be taxed the same as any other commercial property owner, which means your taxes will INCREASE over time. But, whatever amount you were taxed and paid to the City of Bozeman in 1995, that amount is basically FROZEN and that amount will go directly to the city general fund. (frozen, set amount) The balance goes into the TIF. So, if your taxes were $1.000.00 in 1995 on the "Crystal Bar," and today's tax bill says you owe $4,000.00, then $1,000.00 would go to the City of Bozeman general fund, but the other $3,000.00 that would normally go the the City of Bozeman, goes directly to the TIF. Again, this is only for properties in the TIF District. In essence, the City of Bozeman is not reciving the full taxes it would if there were not TIF. But, admittedly...let's play Devils Advocate, they have fixed up downtown pretty well! (Still dont' think I agree with this though...) The commercial property owners (NOT BUSINESSES) who are in the TIF District, decide based on strict government guidelines, where and when to spend this money. FYI: The TIF must show that the improvements that they make are permanent and fit government guidelines. So, it's not a free for all! The property owners cannot build themselves a luxurious swimming pool and bar on top of say the Baxter Hotel with Tif money, and hold wild toga parties only for themselves at least! (oh, joking!) You get the drift. Here's my BEEF with the TIF: The TIF says that they are paying for the majority of the Downtown Parking Garage, well...that is true. Personally I think it's a S T R E T C H . They are paying for it with fund that never made it to the City of Bozeman general fund. The Bozeman TIF has no doubt done a wonderful job of improving downtown, and I have no doubt this will continue. But there has been a cost to other city projects, either not done at all, or delayed. A good portion of the taxes these commercial property owners pay, does not find itself in the general fund where it would normally go. Again, the amount that finds its way into the City of Bozeman general fund is based on the 1995 taxes of the property owners. They (TIF) choose what to do with the money. Also, the TIF does not have 6 MILLION DOLLARS. They have a municipal bond/loan. Payments for this bond will be made with TIF money. TIF can generate income as an example, by renting parking spaces, retail spaces, etc. in the parking garage. Still, that money really should have gone to the City of Bozeman. Our schools are strapped, police force strapped, where does it end. I will say this. Hawthorne School is in the TIF District. TIF is REQUIRED and does pay to Hawthorne School the exact amount that Hawthorne School would recieve if there was no TIF. BID. That is an amount downtown businesses pay, over and above their taxes. This money pays for "beautification" of downtown. Example would be the hanging plants, etc. So, a thanks for that. ______________________________________________________________________________ Downtown Bozeman Partnership 224 East Main Street Bozeman MT 59715 Phone: 406-586-4008 Fax: 406-586-3882 |
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RE: Bozeman Downtown Partnership
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Well this turned out to be a well-rounded thread. I commend you on going the extra mile to answer your questions, expanding all of our understanding of the topic, and reaching a balanced conclusion through conversation. I think your "beef" with TIF is not uncommon or unreasonable based on some of the articles I have seen in the past day or so. It sounds like the debate rages on. I would offer as a counter that is not a special privilege for downtown. I think the "blight" areas in the NE part of town, and North 7th can fund improvements through the same or similar mechanisms. So if there is a need and an area is "conscious" enough to see itself as a neighborhood they could start this process to retain some tax premiums for their own toga parties. It's probably not as easy as all that, but there is more than one in town. You are right that the money never made it to general funds, but one might also argue that, once the city decides it "needs" a parking garage, this provides a way to pay for it without sapping that money (which is partially yours!). At least you know where it is coming from, I guess. Anyway, thanks for the info. I don't know whether the answer you got met the standards that would bring you downtown shopping more often, but we hope to see you soon! |
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RE: Bozeman Downtown Partnership
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Thank you berrymountain! I liked the post and appreciate the leg work you did to get this information. I am not sure I have a big problem with a TIF fund, but I do wonder if perhaps the tax/TIF ratio should be re-addressed. Maybe the city should get a "pay raise" to 1999 or 2000 tax levels. I guess another "curious" question is how did the TIF come about - was it because the city was collecting all the funds and then not doing anything to improve the location where these businesses are trying to make a living, i.e. mismanagement of funds? There may very well be a good reason to have a TIF fund that has to comply with government regulations but is controlled by the businesses that are trying to survive downtown. At any rate, wouldn't it be nice if our property taxes had been frozen at 1995 levels? |
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Coincidentally: MSN has an article regarding this very subject, posted today.
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Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25007385/ It is worth reading. Kind of says that most everyone is at the feeding trough, oinking it up. It may only be 2%, but our nation is literally bankrupt and we can't afford to continue on as we have been doing. Republicans and Democrats alike, need to stop this. Real needs, not wants... |
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The portion of taxes which makes its way to the City of Bozeman "General Fund" at 1995 level
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The point "Pooter" made, "I guess another "curious" question is how did the TIF come about - was it because the city was collecting all the funds and then not doing anything to improve the location where these businesses are trying to make a living, i.e. mismanagement of funds?" That is a very good question. Mismanagement of funds. It seems the City Commissioners do exactly what they want, when it comes to spending tax money. I would ask anyone who reads these posts, especially if they are a member of the TIF or have information (city employees) to please comment. I remember the late 60s, 70's and early 80's downtown was not looking so great. I will be the first to say it looks fabulous except for a few areas. ahh! I don't think you'll ever see me as a supporter of the parking garage. All in all it seems like a private "business," except that there is no way anyone can say that it has been paid for with anything but taxpayer money. I think the TIF is misleading people, by saying "they/TIF" are paying for it. When the truth is, the money that should normally be making it into the coffers of the city general fund, are being spent to provide things these property owners want, and will ultimately control. It's all being built on Federal Tax Money, and money/funds/tax dollars that never made it into the coffers. |
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Simplified Version of TIF
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Downtown property owners in the TIF District: The taxes that TIF District property owners pay into the "City General Fund," is frozen at 1995 levels and will continue to be frozen for years to come. This means that property owners in TIF District DO NOT contribute to the City of Bozeman General Fund as other property owners. The remainder or difference is deposited into the TIF District account, which they control. Their TIF Account is how they pay for their projects: PARKING GARAGE (4 million dollar earmark/pork oink oink + 6 million dollar municipal bond which they will make payments using their "Tif Account"), LANDSCAPE PROJECT "Soroptomist Park" (They matched funds, but take 100% credit for beautifying their TIF District), Street Lamps, Etc., all of which help "their" properties GROW in value... Basically, they have figured out a way to legally short the City of Bozeman taxpayers, direct money to their area, and also want recognition, and a pat on the back for it. |
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