Farmer's Market

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Last night, I was approached by a friend, who helps coordinate Manhattan's Farmer's Market. She had bad news. Apparently, the Gallatin Farmer's Market could be without a home. The mommies and daddies of the hockey players have approached the fair board about having exclusive use of the Haynes Pavilion. What goes on here? I thought this was the Gallatin County Fairgrounds, not the rich yuppies exclusive playground for their kids. There's really no other place in the county that has enough covered room with adequate parking. Please, people, don't let a county institution get run out of town by these over-moneyed, over-lawyered people. Some of the vendors at the Market make a big portion of their living at the market.

Oh, and a little plug for the Manhattan Market. Wednesday eves, starting mid-June. A great little market. Heck, we even have room for all those vendors that might not get to use the pavilion, just minus the roof.
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location: Bozeman, M.t.
posted on Sun, May 18, 2008 08:23 PM
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Farmer's Market byuptown2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
It would seem the only benefit to the hockey team to keep exclusive rights to the pavillion is so that the rink would not have to be broken down in the summer. The fairgrounds themselves uses the pavillion for the summer fair so it's hard to imagine they would be agreeable to the demands of the hockey folks. But if it were the case, the fairgrounds still has lots of space and buildings. I would hope they don't move back to Bogart.
I don't think it would happen either. by2ndMonkey2 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
To lose this Farmer's Market location would cause too much controversy.
Everyone loves a farmer's market!
Farmer's Market bycwrite2 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Why was the Farmer's Market moved from Bogart Park to the Fairgrounds in the first place? It didn't improve because of the changed location.
Ignorant, Offensive Rant byHockeyMom2 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
To the original poster: Perhaps you should get your facts straight before going off on a vitriolic, ignorant tirade.

1) For you to belittle over 300 families as "mommies and daddies" is just plain offensive and childish.

2) There are certainly a few rich families in the hockey and figure skating community, just as there are in any group. The vast majority of us are hard working middle class people, who suffer from low wages and rising expenses like most everyone else. Our group includes single moms, teachers, waitresses, policemen, and the very craftsmen you profess to protect. For you to stereotype us as "over-moneyed" and "over-lawyered" is again quite offensive, and again, ignorant.

3) Bozeman Amateur Hockey Association (BAHA) has asked permission to leave part of the boards in place, and to be allowed to build permanent seating on one side of the pavilion. BAHA has also requested to extend the LEASE on the pavilion from Sept. 1 - May 30--about two weeks extra on each end. Never did BAHA request to have "exclusive use" of Haynes Pavilion.

4) BAHA and the Bozeman Figure Skating Club raise a lot of money for upkeep, repair, and improvement to the facility, while the county and its non-skating residents reap the benefits of this work at the Farmer's Market, County Fair, concerts, and other summer events.

5) Whether or not you happen to enjoy or appreciate hockey, after-school programs such as this promote healthy mental and physical development, and help to keep adolescents out of trouble and thereby make them better adults and members of the community.

Mrs Claus, you are flat out wrong, your post demonstrates your selfishness, and your ignorant view is offensive to all the hard working and decent Mothers, Fathers, and Children who are a part of Bozeman Amateur Hockey. You owe us an apology.
RE: Ignorant, Offensive Rant bydanie0062 months ago (5 votes) (report abuse)
I hate to say it but if you can scrape together enough money to have your kids play organized hockey then you are not exactly, "suffer[ing] from low wages and rising expenses like most everyone else."
RE: Ignorant, Offensive Rant byBroadway2 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse)
dictionary: Non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow."), in formal logic, is an argument where its conclusion does not follow from its premises.

@danie006: who are you to tell someone about their financial situation based on sport(s) their kids might participate in? by your argument: there are NO parent(s) of children who play hockey who suffer from low wages and rising expenses.

you're wrong and i'll tell you why - parents will sacrifice for their children. my mom put me and my sister through all sorts of sports, while working 2 jobs and going to college. we ate lots of macaroni, hamburger helper, and cheap cereal. i didn't really appreciate it at the time... as for you - don't be such a judgemental douche. especially considering that the original topic is completely based in fantasy. the fairgrounds would never shove off the farmers market like that, and why would BAHA want that anyway?

jeez i'm starting to hear that "twilight zone/deliverance" music in my head again - i hope that maybe you weirdos are just hopped up on spider-poison or something that wears off after a few hours. are you allowed to roam around without supervision?
RE: Ignorant, Offensive Rant byLauren1 month ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Amen!, Sister!
HOCKEYMOM... byberrymountain2 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Vitriol is an overused "word" a few conservatives made popular during the last U.S. Presidential election. Some people have hung onto this "word," and throw it around with impressive results. A sort of "sword."

Vitriol means; "Bitterly, abusive, feeling or expression."

Take a look at MRSCLAUS' post which stated concern for those who participate in the "Farmers Market. Then take a good look at YOUR response. I think your response could be categorized as hateful and vitriolic.

I think it is wonderful that you and others sacrafice so that your children can play hockey, or any other sport/activity. I respect this and believe most of us also sacrafice. Your other points are well take.

Just wish you could have responded with factual information, leaving out the attack. I think most of us would really appreciate a response from someone like you, giving us good and solid information. I have to believe that you also appreciate and value the "Farmers Market."
Mr. Wordsmith byHockeyMom2 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse)
It is really funny to see over and over that when one cannot form a logical contrary argument, the fallback is to nitpick the message itself.

So you pulled out your dictionary berrymountain--good for you. Now let's actually examine the SUBSTANCE of your superficial criticism:

Mrs Claus used the phrases "mommies and daddies", "rich yuppies", "over-moneyed, over-lawyered people", and the main tone of the message was very bitter, abusive, and offensive. The term "vitriol" applies perfectly here, whether or not you believe it is overused.

I and everyone else can take a look at Mrs Claus' post, and my response. It is clear that Mrs Claus's post is a selfish, hateful one, which is entirely inaccurate and based on rumors and stereotypes. Mine is one of indignation, defending an unwarranted attack, and presenting the FACTS of the matter. I called Mrs Claus' post ignorant and offensive, and I stand by that characterization. Just to save you the trouble of pulling out your dictionary again, "ignorant" means "lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified" and "offensive" means "causing displeasure or resentment".

Did you actually read my original reply??? It was chock full of facts. So your comment, "Just wish you could have responded with factual information, leaving out the attack" does not make sense. I DEFENDED an unwarranted and vitriolic (yes, the word does apply) attack on my group with FACTS.
Judgmental Douche on Spider Poison bydanie0062 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
The argument I heard is that BAHA wants to leave the boards up and install permanent seating, all of which will reduce the multi-use functionality of the Haynes Pavilion. This sounds like a request out of convenience for BAHA, rather than to have to break down the boards and seating at the end of the season or whenever they need to use the pavilion for other events. If that is the case then I think Mrs. Claus has a right to be worked up.

Well, the classic stereotype for a hockey family is one that is has the means to afford the $1,000 + per season per kid to outfit them and pay for ice time, association fees, transportation, etc.

You're right, Broadway. Good point about the non sequitur. I just couldn't resist. I am being a judgmental douche, but it seems like priorities are skewed if you sacrifice healthy eating and an excessive work life, not to mention the loss of non-sports related time with the family, just to support youth sports participation. That doesn't really make sense.
RE: Judgmental Douche on Spider Poison byHockeyMom2 months ago (4 votes) (report abuse)
This is a more reasoned response, to which I can reply in a more reasoned manner.

The Martel family (the owners of the now defunct Gallatin Valley Ice Garden) are generous enough to donate the extremely nice and comfortable seating from the Ice Garden. However, for various engineering reasons, it is not possible to install these in a temporary fashion. Therefore, a permanent steel and/or concrete structure would need to be built to support this seating.

All the boards would not be left in place, just one side. I am not aware of the reason behind this, but I can assure you that it is not just for convenience. We all volunteer an incredible amount of time to set up the rink in the fall, and to tear down the rink in the spring. Leaving just one section of boards in place would not reduce the amount of work appreciably.

One important fact to remember is that Haynes Pavilion was specifically constructed to be an ice rink. That it can also be used in other ways in the summer is a convenient and nice side effect. BAHA leases the pavilion from the county during the winter months, so our organization is PAYING for its use during the winter.

I would agree that the installation of permanent seating on one side would remove a sizable portion of the floor space used once a week by Farmer's Market vendors. However, it would not make the space unusable, and would actually contribute greatly to the pavilion's other uses, including concerts, shows, and other public events. When examined on the whole, the installation of permanent seating would actually ENHANCE the multi-use functionality of Haynes Pavilion, even though its main reason for existence is as a hockey rink.

It is hard for me to believe that the loss of roughly 3000 square feet of covered space would have a big impact to this community, with all its parks, public buildings, and other covered spaces. I do really enjoy the Farmer's Market, but I can honestly find no reason why the coexistence of winter hockey and summer markets, events, and the fair cannot continue.

My personal financial situation, of which all of you know nothing, is of no consequence to this discussion, and only serves to detract from the real issue at hand.
DANIE06 byberrymountain2 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
You got a star from me this time!
RE: DANIE06 bydanie0062 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Thanks, Berrymountain!
Farmer's Market byuptown2 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
It appears from reading the paper this morning (5-21-08) that it's the case that the hockey folks are not trying to run the Farmer's Market out completely, but that the market would not be able to use the Haynes pavillion after Sept 1st. And that when they are able to use the pavillion they will have to work around structures that they didn't have to before. Which could also result in a crunch for space. In as much as I admire hockey parents for the sacrifices they make, due to hockey not being a high school sport financed by our taxes, I think I generally have to side with the farmer's market people on this one. If the plan is to build another pavillion, maybe this doesn't need to be a permanent conflict.
Farmer'a Market byboth sides2 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
It is interesting that most of the comments made were made prior to any meeting the fairboard had with BAHA regarding what they (BAHA) wanted regarding Haynes Pavillion. Haynes Pavillion was built with alot of donated money, materials and volunteer hours. If people involved in hockey would not have made this pavillion a reality Farmers Market would not have had a covered location to move to when they left Bogert Park. I would like to thank uptown for posting a comment that isn't bashing hockey families. And if the plan is to build another pavillion this may not be a permanent conflict. Is Farmers Market helping raise funds for a new pavillion? I doubt it, but I am sure they would be more than happy to use it. I believe BAHA was using the pavillion before Farmers Market and BAHA pays a considerable amount more to lease the space than Farmers Market.
I do have to make one comment regarding the bashing that hockey families have taken about being rich, etc. There are many 2 income working families involved in hockey. Before people start making nasty comments they should take a look at the other sports in town. I am sure there just as many over-moneyed, over-lawyered parents with kids playing soccer. The last time I heard soccer teams travel to Boise, Las Vegas, Salt Lake to play soccer. And for people that are not aware, hockey players can use their equipment for more than one season or wear used equipment. Also, hockey players do not have to travel if they do not desire.
To me this looks like a similiar situation to the agrument regarding hikers, bikers, and ATV riders. If everyone works together everyone can enjoy the space. It appears BAHA is trying to do that and I hope people will take their blinders off. If you look at it from a business aspect, would you want to lose a customer that pays you thousands throughout the entire year or one that only pays you a couple of hundred per week for 10 - 12 weeks.
Farmer's Market byuptown2 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Whatever one's position on the matter is, I think anyone who can afford to buy produce at the Farmer's Market, might be a little "over monied" themselves. So I'm not going to say that about hockey parents as was done on the original post. And I'm not changing my mind in terms of siding with the Farmer's Market for the most part, but I'm also wondering if those who cry the longest and the loudest about lost space or time at the market isn't the vendors? They don't pay a lot for stall rent, but some of them (not all and maybe not even the majority), rake in the bucks.
Having said that, it's too good a community event to lose.
To each his own, but the last thing I want to do in early September is to get ready for a sport played in the winter.
Thoughtful opinions byHockeyMom2 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Wow, first of all, thank you to both sides and uptown for the reasoned dialog devoid of the personal attacks which have become all too often here on the Bozeman Talks! site (not just in this thread).

Even though uptown and I may be on different sides of the issue, I respect the fears of the pro-market side, and their desire to have things remain the same. Actually, I do not really oppose uptown, since I am not against the Farmer's Market at all.

The news article paints a bleak picture of "ruin" to many local farmers, and "crippling" the market. Seriously? Ruin and Cripple? What's the problem with using more outdoor space? If indoor space is really required, there are a LOT of other buildings there at the fairgrounds which could be used for the last two Saturdays.

I love the Farmer's Market, but things really do need to be put in perspective here:
1) BAHA and BFSC use the facility almost 19 hours every day for 8 months. That's about 4,600 hours per year. That is not exaggerating since the adult hockey goes until midnight or later, and the figure skaters start at 5AM.
2) The Farmer's Market uses the facility 3 hours every Saturday for 13 weeks from June 21 to Sept. 13. That's 39 hours.
3) Therefore, BAHA leases the pavilion over 4500 hours more (118 times more) than the Farmer's Market.
4) Other compromising arrangements can be made to accommodate the market vendors. It's not like the Farmer's Market is being told to pack up and leave.
5) The community used to have a year-'round, privately financed ice rink, but various market forces caused its demise. The skating community (including youth hockey players, adult hockey players, figure skaters, and recreational skaters) sorely miss this year-'round ice.
6) Regardless of your opinion about getting ready in September for a winter sport, to hockey players and figure skaters, that is REALLY late! Most all of our competition in other similar towns and cities has the opportunity to skate all year.
7) Finally, it IS a HOCKEY rink. That is what it was designed and built for, and that is its main use. There is nowhere else skaters can skate, but there are a multitude of other places that vendors and farmers can sell their products, including a dozen right there at the fairgrounds.
Ouch!! byMrs Claus1 month ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Okay, maybe I was a bit miffed about not having a good place for the farmer's market, but to call me bigoted is a bit much.

The vendors DO pay a fee-one for the season and another for every week they show up. This money goes to Career Transitions, a non-profit that gives low income people marketable skills to better their income and place in life. Sounds like a win-win to me.

The reason the market moved from the fairgrounds was primarily lack of parking. You have to park several blocks away, hopefully not in somebody's yard if you want to take in the Tuesday Bogert market.

Hockey is very expensive to have your kid in, and a lot of "regular folk" can't afford it. Not to mention all the traveling.

When my grandkids played soccer, they played in the same field every week-next to Hedges Hall, and the expense was much less. Nobody went to Salt Lake or Las Vegas.

HockeyMom, why do you insist on calling me to the carpet for passing judgment and calling names and then go off and call ME names? How about filling us in on facts so we might cool off and work out a solution?

You talk about hours spent-the crafters, food producers and growers in the market work like dogs year round, sometimes, just to have enough produce, products and food to accommodate the demand from the many, many, people who show up on Saturday morning. (And Tuesday and Wednesday evenings) (AND many more people than come to the hockey games) And I repeat-this is primary income for many of these people. They pay taxes on these earnings as well.

Nobody wants to get rid of hockey-all the Market people want is to not have the rug pulled out from under them until there can be a good substitute provided.

I am not a hockey-hater. I'm not very sports minded, but learned to love hockey. My favorite winter activity was taking in Ice Dogs games. I hope that good hockey can continue

HockeyMom, let's take it out to the playground. I'll apologize for name-calling if you will!
HOCKEYMOM Quote: " It is clear that Mrs Claus's post is a selfish, hateful one," byberrymountain1 month ago (2 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Hockeymom, you've flattered yourself enough...

Your rant/response shows your temperment and character very well:

Your words: "I and everyone else can take a look at Mrs Claus' post, and my response. It is clear that Mrs Claus's post is a selfish, hateful one, which is entirely inaccurate and based on rumors and stereotypes. Mine is one of indignation, defending an unwarranted attack, and presenting the FACTS of the matter. I called Mrs Claus' post ignorant and offensive, and I stand by that characterization. Just to save you the trouble of pulling out your dictionary again, "ignorant" means "lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified" and "offensive" means "causing displeasure or resentment".

You are the definition of "Offensive." Glad you have a dictionary...
compromise byuptown1 month ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Hey Hockeymom: Just curious how likely it could be to compromise? Meaning moving the Farmers market to other buildings after Sept 1 but not having to deal with the boards being up before then?
Also, you've made a good point with indicating how many hours the rink is used for hockey and how many for farmers market. But oother numbers that can't be ingored is that hundreds of people come to Farmer's Market, more than I think could be seated at hockey. (I think).
"FARMERS MARKET" byberrymountain1 month ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
It's what Bozeman is all about. This town was built on farming and ranching. That's why it's so loved by so many.

There's room for hockey, and anything else. Just don't try to push aside Bozeman's roots.
RE: "FARMERS MARKET" byMrs Claus1 month ago (2 votes) (report abuse)
Amen, Berrymountain!! That's what I was trying to say. Oh, and the criticism of the Market itself-what's wrong with it? The farmer's markets in other areas I've visited haven't been as nice as this one. We are very lucky!

I got a letter from Career Transitions urging us to write letters to the Fair board and the county commissioners. You betcha-I'm writing to every single one! Oh, and when I got the facts, I am more convinced than ever that the Market would lose its space.

Facts:
1. The BAHA wants to leave up the wooden boards (minus the glass) that circle the inside of the pavilion.
2. Put up permanent bleachers along the east and north sides.
3. Use the pavilion from Sept. 1 through June 1.

There would be only room for 20 vendors in one row and none of those would be able to work out of the back of their vehicle. (Much needed for the large produce vendors.) If the market has to end before Sept. 1, that would rule out a huge amount of produce. Don't forget our short growing season. We desperately need September for harvest.

Looks like a pushout to me! What's wrong with sitting down and talking about the best solution for everyone, and not demanding that only our own needs get met?
' N I C E F O L K S" byberrymountain1 month ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Only takes 2 words to describe the people who run and coordinate the "Farmers Market."

Now, that's something to be proud of.
Posted in the Billings Gazette online byberrymountain1 month ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
I must have missed this in today's paper (Chronicle)

In any case, here's the information:

(cut/pasted)

Bozeman farmers' market starts today
By Gazette News Services

BOZEMAN - The Bogert Farmers' Market kicks off Tuesday, June 3, from 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. at Bogert Park's Pavilion on South Church Avenue. The market will run every Tuesday, today through Sept. 9.

At 7 p.m., local musicians will perform on the Bogert Park's band shell.

The market is a fundraiser committed to the restoration and preservation of Bogert Park.

For information, call 406-539-0216 or go online to www.bogertfarmersmarket.com.
Farmers Market vs. Hockey/Figure Skating Rink bynorthside resident1 month ago (2 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
For what is worth, the Haynes family bequethed the money to have a building built at the Fairgrounds for the usage " of the people ". Thus the name " Haynes Pavillion". This means the building is for everyone to use NOT for the use of one organization or another.
farmers market byboth sides1 month ago (1 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
In response to Mrs. Claus and her facts. Are you sure it isn't just 150 ft of boards that want to be left up and not all of them? And to the comment about "What's wrong with sitting down and talking about the best solution for everyone, and not demanding that only our own needs get met?" It sounds like that is what BAHA is trying to do and Farmers Market is saying that they are not willing to compromise or make changes. I do have two questions, Why did Farmers Market leave Bogert Park? Why does Bozeman have two farmers markets? And if it is about space, why can't vendors setup in the parking lots and grass areas with their own tents? I have been to numerous farmers markets and everyone has to provide their own shade.
Facts are Good byspadeAspade1 month ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
The Haynes Family donated a north side brick building to the City of Bozeman. This building was just north of the Lehrkind Mansion. Almost 10 years ago, the city was able to sell the building and the funds were directed to the fairgrounds ice rink project which was in planning at the time. BAHA members suggested the the planned pavilion be named after the Haynes Family. The original Haynes Building was recently torn down as part of the Brewery project.
Haynes family donated a building/land... byberrymountain1 month ago